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Subject: TML biweekly: Msgs 7762-7771 V45#11
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TML biweekly    Wed May 25 21:00:03 EDT 1994    Volume 45 : Issue 11

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 618  7763 25-May-1994 ubte30e          FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive? << -----BE
 618  7764 25-May-1994 James T Perkins  XTML: TAKING SUBSCRIPTIONS << I am anno
 618  7765 25-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Re: Diseases << Cynthia Higginbotham <C
 618  7766 23-May-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyv << Subject: 7
 618  7767 25-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  TNE: VIRUS << TNE: The VIRUS?
 618  7768 25-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  Misc: Grenadier Figures << In response 
 618  7770 25-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Magnum Bolt Rifle or Design Sequence
 619  7771 25-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  High Guard design << Here's another Hig
 618  7762 25-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Sword World Technology << David Johnson
 618  7769 25-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re: Another Pair of NPCs << Here are a 

This is a passively moderated mailing list. All messages sent to the
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7763
From: ubte30e <ubte30e@ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 17:09:41 +0100
Subject: FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive?

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville) wrote:

>Recently, for whatever reason, I looked into designing a ship capable
>of interstellar flight with a payload of five billion tons, using FF&S.
>(A *huge* payload. Some of the CT referees out there who liked FASA may
>know where my number is coming from.) So I checked out drive systems.

Sorry, 'fraid I missed that one.  Explanation, please? <sound of PCs
quaking in boots>

>STL travel stinks. And it revealed a *major* bug in the FF&S rules. At
>[...]
>higher." (p. 74)

>#$**$%^@! <This is a family mailing-list.> :)

>Per cubic meter of maneuver drive: (in metric tons)

>                 THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
>Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
>Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
>HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr

>[...]

>The Daedalus drive is an order of magnitude *worse* in fuel efficiency
>than the conventional fusion rocket!!! Combined with its' worse
>thrust-to-mass ratio, the engine is fairly worthless.

<bing!> Wrong, but thanks for playing. See FF&S page 70, column 2, para
3, "FC"; "Fuel consumption, in tonnes, per hour per tonne of thrust."
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So the Fusion Rocket line should actually be:

Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000350 ton/hr

This makes the Daedalus slightly better, but still nothing like an order
of magnitude.

What REALLY worries me, though, is the fuel efficiency of AZHRAE
engines.  Has anyone actually tried to design a tech 8 surface-to-orbit
vehicle (NASP or similar)?  As far as I can see, it's not actually
possible to carry enough fuel to make orbit from an Earth-sized world.
(I'll go into details of the calculation only if necessary.)  Does
anybody have a fully-worked design for something of this sort?

>Any comments? Am I reading this wrong?

Only that table heading - and there are still big problems.

Roger ("I only wanted some NASP stats for Dark Conspiracy")

- - --
Roger Burton-West <> Reality hacker <> Economics student <> The Last Romantic
GEcon/CS d? p--- c++++ l u+(-) e+ m++@ s++/+ !n h+ f+ g+(-) w+ t- r+ y?
Mail me at ubte30e@ucl.ac.uk (or @uk.ac.ucl) or rburtonw@nyx.cs.du.edu
Finger at ubte30e@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk or rburtonw@nyx.cs.du.edu for PGP key

Harrisberger's Fourth Law of the Lab:
Experience is directly proportional to the amount of equipment ruined.

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------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7764
Subject: XTML: TAKING SUBSCRIPTIONS
Reply-To: jamesp@sp-eug.com (James T Perkins)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:14:33 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>


I am announcing: Xboat Traveller Mailing List - a TNE-free zone. XTML
will focus discussion on:

        Eras                    Rulesets
        -----------------       ------------------
        Third Imperium          Classic (black books, The Traveller Book)
        Rebellion               MegaTraveller

In contrast, the good old TML will still be open for any rangy
discussion, alternate, etc, no holds barred.

XTML will be provided in nightly, biweekly, and archive bundle digest
format (just like TML).

To SUBSCRIBE to XTML, mail xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca.
To SEND ARTICLES to XTML, mail xboat@engrg.uwo.ca.

Eventually, XTML will be rejoined with an improved, tech level 8 TML,
coming hopefully within the next year (something like this will be
necessary anyway in order for me to manage the administrative load). The
Advanced TML will introduce:

        o topical filtering of TML - the digests will only include
          topics you have a stated interest in. Key topic identifier
          strings will be required on the subject line so the filters
          can recognize content.

        o a robotic list admin to handle subscription, unsubscription,
          address changes delivery frequency, and personal topic-filter
          changes

        o higher-reliability message digestion (this has been bugging me
          lately, folks).

James Perkins
TML Admin -- traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
XTML Admin -- xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7765
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 13:15:33 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Diseases

Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

>From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
>
>>  > First, viruses tend to be *very* species specific.
>
>    *RABIES!* (Which afflicts *all* mammals with varying degrees of 
>    lethality, i.e., some frequently infected mammals have large 
>    populations of immune carriers....)

Mea culpa -- you caught me making an overly broad statement.  Let me
try that line again:
  "First, viruses *tend* to be very species specific."

Both influenza and rabies are examples of multi-species virii.
As far as I know, however, they are still both limited to class
Mammalia.  Influenza is unstable genetically, which is why there
are so many flu strains and why coming up with effective vaccines
is so hard.  Bubonic plague is caused by a bacterium, _Yersinia
pestis_ (unless they've changed their mind about the genus again),
so it's a slightly different story.  Many non-viral microorganisms
could be expected to have effects in alien ecologies that are 
chemically similar to our own, especially those involved in 
decomposition.  The bacteria and fungi work directly on the
chemical structure of an organism, giving them a lot of food
opportunities.  

Viruses are another story.  Typically, viruses have a "host range"
of organisms they can infect, and usually this range is limited
to one species.  From what I recall, a virus targets it's quarry
based on the chemical antigens and structure of the surface of the
preferred cell.  (So HIV attacks certain white-blood cells, but 
not, for example, nerve cells.)  So a virus will typically be 
optimized to attack one specific sub-system, and sometimes the 
optimization is very very specific.  The viruses that attack
multiple species are usually targeting very similar cell types.

Furthermore, the target cell needs to be able to interact with
the DNA or RNA strand the virus releases.  If the alien isn't
DNA/RNA based, or simply can't produce the parts the virus needs
for construction, the infection won't work.

There are usually subtle differences between cells even in similar
species, especially at the cell membrane level viruses use to
recognize potential targets.

Conceivably, a virus designed to affect all Terran mammals could
infect the vargr, since vargr are Terran mammals, and members of
a genus in class Mammalia related to _Canis_.  But all external
similarities aside, a human should be more closely related 
genetically to a strand of kelp than to an aslan, or any other
alien.  (In Traveller this may not be true.  But then, the aliens
in Traveller are more science-fantasy than reality, of course.)

Targeting specific species would be simpler.  You just have to
pick a cell type unique to the population that you are targeting.
This sort of thing might make a horror like a disease that prefers
Vilani or Zhodani, for the most part, possible.  You really
couldn't *trust* such a thing, since the human minor races are so
closely related, but someone might try.

I suppose one could speculate about the existence of a Lucanian
biowar weapon that did target several species, not necessarily a
virus, that mainly was meant to nail humans.  That might have some
interesting effects on future history -- the former territory of
the Imperium might end up being dominated by a number of very 
non-human alien species that were unaffected by the weapon and
thus lucked into ready-made pocket empires early on.  Some of 
the nastier may have even helped the weapon along....

Yuck.  This is getting ugly.  As far as I know, the Imperium
never used CBW, although they did stockpile some in the Marches
during the bitter Third Frontier War.  The Second Empire of
Gashikan did mount a particularly despicable attempt at 
xenocide in the -1400s (31st century AD) against the entire
vargr species, using a series of microbes.  The vargr stopped
it, but almost all the vargr in Gashikan sector died.  It was
the worst part of a long series of interspecies wars set off
by the Sack of Gashikan in -1658 (AD 2860).  Note that only
the vargr were targeted.  An Ancient biowar weapon seriously
depopulated Zhdant, but it was targeted primarily at the world's
(now extinct) Droyne population...and who knows *how* it worked;
it was an Ancients weapon.  (Besides, it was out of character.
Not only did it not kill all the humans, it was misdelivered
and didn't hit right until after the Zhodani had space-flight.
Usually Ancient weapons seem to hit whatever they attacked, and
destroy whatever they hit.)

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7766
Subject: 74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyv
From: nntp!execnet.com!jeff.zeitlin@uu5.psi.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 18:45:00 -0500

Subject: 74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyver

T::>>I'd bet MacGyver could build a simple Cannon-Locke or Matchlock out of
 ::>>Bamboo and twine. . .

T::>So can James T. Kirk, especially when a lumbering lizard man (a.k.a. the
 ::>Gorn) was after him!

 Naahh, Kirk needed some diamonds and sulfur to complete the job.  
 I'm not sure where he got the saltpeter, though.  McGyver could do 
 it with nothing but a swamp in the middle of a jungle.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ We're gonna need another Timmy!

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7767
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 14:31:02 EDT
Subject: TNE: VIRUS

TNE: The VIRUS?

Discussions of the viability of the GDW VIRUS are similar to discussions
of the existence of God: there are two sides and neither can be
conclusively argued.

Possibly VIRUS is not properly named, or is the common reference used
for what is involved.  This is similar to my work at a wastewater
treatment plant - we use bacteria and algae to treat wastewater but most
of the workers refer to these biological organisms as 'bugs' which they
are not.

From my understanding the VIRUS was developed from research of a silicon
life form.  This life form is completely unlike anything that exists on
Earth in 1994 so we, the members of TML, may very well have gross
misconceptions of this beastie.  This life form seems to exist as
computer code that is able to burn new circuits much as we can construct
various forms of habitats to increase our quality of life.  In so doing
this VIRUS, as it is called by the humans whose computers it has taken
control of, has decided to use those computers to control the various
forms of equipment in meeting an agenda of its own.

If this were merely a computer virus it well could be said to be
unbelievable.  Even as it is I feel that GDW simply used it as a plot
device to bring about the transition from MT to TNE (I wonder if thios
much banter goes on re. the transition from TSR's AD&D (TM) to the 2nd
edition rules?


PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7768
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 25 May 94 14:17:24 MS
Subject: Misc: Grenadier Figures

In response to Glenn Goffin's 5/24 message about Grenadier figures:

I was able to order some Grenadier Marines about 18 months ago from
Wargames West.  They did not have any of the Adventurers or Aliens
sets at that time.  They may still have something; it would be worth a
try.

I would also like to find another Adventurers set, and I wouldn't mind 
getting some more Alien Animals and Alien Adventurers.  Let me know 
if you find any for sale.  Thanks!


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7770
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 18:56:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Magnum Bolt Rifle or Design Sequence Abuse

Some rules hardliners might get upset here but I have no problem with 
adding things to the RPG tech background to either correct (in my mind) 
things or introduce effects or capabilities as long as they are not in 
direct conflict with the standing rules.  This preamble is here because I 
would like to introduce a new type of ammunition/weapon that I have 
played withand might start using.  The goal is the beloved Blaster of 
SciFi fame.  I wont post this in standard weapon form because it is 
really intended to initiate discussion.

This weapon is the Magnum Bolt Rifle.  It is compact,  at 60cm and 
beefy at about 6.8 kg loaded.  A fat weapon.  At 60cm its short 
enough to be a sort of heavy blaster.  It fires a round that has as its 
base a 20mm x 32mm Straight ETC cartridge.  This gives Ea of 8500J.  
The rules bending is this.  One of the available ammo aside from Heap and 
DS is a Plasma Pulse Cartridge that sits on the end of the ETC 
cartridge.  It is ballistic tipped.  The ETC cartridge initiates the 
"reaction" in the PPC.  A micro piezo electric fuze in the ballistic cap 
discharges the plasma stream upon impact.  It is in a sense a Super HEAP 
round.  Dont ask me how it works.  It is in effect a ballistically 
delivered plasma pulse.  The special effect would be that the cartridge 
glows because of the heat and it fails completey after about 0.5 s when 
you just get a 20 meter stream of plasma.  Maybe doing 1D6 burn damage to 
anybody in the stream hexes.?..A PPC about this size is a 3D6 attack.  
The round energy with a 20 cm barrell gives 5D6? So the total would be 
about 8D6?  It would have a pen of 1-1-1 but a max range of 200m because 
of the cartridge consumption. So....you get a large caliber weapon that 
fires a glowing bolt at about 400 m/s (slow enough to be seen?) That will 
punch right through battle dress.  You get the range of a slug weapon 
with the Pen of a Plasma weapon.  Think about it, ballistically delivered 
fusion cartridges?  And after about 200m you get a bright streamer.  Even 
better the thing gives off a bright explosion? when it hits a target 
inside 200m.  Hell, if you dont like my bolt ammo just look and see what 
a rifle firing 20mm x 32 mm Heap ammo can do.  That alone would make an 
extremely devastating but still compact weapon.  I can see it now, the 
Battle Dress trooper at TL 10 coming down and seeing these guys in 
T-Shirts with some short compact weapon and while theyre laughing hearing a 
kaboom and wondering where that hole through his chest armor came from.  
As soon as I find my FF&S Ill formalize all this stuff.  But the Magnum 
Rifle is something Im definitely gonna dump in a campaign...

Tariq

"The rocket cannot work in space because there's nothing to push off of"
                                William Randolph Hearst
 



------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7771
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 20:00:21 EDT
Subject: High Guard design

Here's another High Guard design. This time the history of the ship is 
given up through the Cluster Liberation War.

     _Rorke's Drift_ class Heavy Cruiser

CA-1 Rorke's Drift CA-N6368F3-090100-00E08-0 MCr30,626.8 35,000 tons
batteries bearing      D    1 9  Crew=296.
batteries        F    1 A  TL=12.
Low=273. Cargo=806. Fuel=13,300. EP=2800. Agility=6. Marines=250.

Notes: Ship has frozen watch, fuel scoops, purification plant.

This is the original _Rorke's Drift_ design. 60 of these ships were built 
for the NFN, all named for famous battles fought on Earth. This version 
of the ship saw action during both the Old Islands War, in which six were 
lost, and the Topas War. Following the Topas War, FAdm Connor commented 
that the lack of armour made this class to vulnerable to risk against 
capital ships.

The surviving cruisers received the Series A refit in 5630.

CA-1 Series A CA-N6368H4-090300-N0009-0 MCr30,670.5 35,000 tons
batteries bearing    D  1 9 Crew=281.
batteries      F  1 A TL=12(14).
Low=641. Cargo=676. Fuel=13,300. EP=2800. Agility=6. Marines=1000.

Notes: Ship has frozen watch, scoops, plant. The refit cost MCr1,330.47 
per ship and took 14 weeks.

The Series A _Rorke's Drift_ received the new Missile-A bays and a laser 
spinal mount, and also had the Marine contingent greatly expanded, from 
two companies to a heavily reinforced battalion.

The added accomodations for the Marines came in handy, as the _Rorke's 
Drift_ class was called on to perform several disaster relief missions 
throughout the Cluster in the next few years--the Marines were frequently 
replaced with medical personnel.

In addition to the disaster relief missions, the class also saw action in 
the Serendip War. 34 of them were at the Second Battle of Neubayern, and 
13 of them were lost or damaged beyond repair.

When the Imperials invaded, eleven ships were hidden in deep space, and 
the remaining thirty were removed to the safe worlds. There they received 
the Series B refit.

CA-1 Series B CA-N6368J4-000700-N000A-0 MCr35,315.2 35,000 tons
batteries bearing    1 Y Crew=410.
batteries      1 Z TL=12(15).
Passengers=30. Low=720. Cargo=647. Fuel=3640. EP=2800. Agility=6. 
Marines=1000.   Y=51, Z=60

Notes: Ship has frozen watch, scoops, plant.  Has an NH3 fuel system, 
Helson-Canomaar Overdrive jump system, and enhanced output maneuver drive.  
Carries one 30-ton small craft.  Has 1800 ton missile magazine (600 
battery-rounds).  Carries 40 ER missile controllers.  Missiles have 
anti-missile fire control capability.  Has enough fuel for four jumps 
before refueling.  The refit cost MCr22,691.7 and took 48 weeks.

The Series B _Rorke's Drift_ is representative of the other Series B 
refits. An NH3 fuel system was installed, reducing the fuel mass to 52% 
of normal. The newly-developed Helson-Canomaar Overdrive system was also 
added (this was the most expensive single component), reducing the jump 
fuel requirement by a factor of ten. Combined, this allowed a ship to 
jump with 5.2% of the pre-refit fuel requirement.

This enourmous savings in space mostly went to weapons.  Using the 
multi-bay system, which allows more bays than normal to be carried at the 
cost of doubled tonnage requirements for each 'extra' bay, 60 100-ton 
missile bays were added. All missile bays were equipped with anti-missile 
fire control, which allows a missile bay to act as a repulsor bay of 
three factors lower. Also, enough magazine space was added to support ten 
turns of ER missile fire. During the Cluster Liberation War, these ships 
carried exclusively Kinetic Energy missiles. These missiles do damage 
like a nuclear missile, but aren't affected by nuclear dampers and have a 
- -2 penalty to hit. 

The older Series A ships were reactivated late in the CLW, but were used 
primarily to mop up Imperial stragglers. The Series B ships performed 
with distinction during the War, though. Even with the improved nuclear 
dampers and anti-missile fire control, they were still too vulnerable to 
go toe-to-toe with Imperial capital ships--instead, they fired ER 
missiles from beyond the Imperial's range.

The high point of the class' career was the Battle of Pamraeltan. The 
Imperial Naval Base in that system was to be the jumping-off point for 
the Imperial's planned reconquest of the Islands following their initial 
defeats there. They had mustered a sizeable force led by a _Tigress_ 
class battleship. The Alliance Navy had learned of the Imperial plan, and 
launched a preemptive strike on the Imperial fleet as it was being 
assembled. During the ensuing battle, a squadron of _Rorke's Drift_ class 
cruisers fired a single salvo of KE missiles at the Imperial flagship, 
rendering it dead in space and badly damaging its weapons and fuel tanks. 
Before the Imperials could get there flagship to safety, it was destroyed 
by an Alliance planet-buster.

                        Kenneth G. Hagler
 _________________________________________________________________
|            kenhagler@aol.com           |  My insurance company  |
|             (619) 251-0054             |    is Beretta U.S.A.   |
|   PGP 2.3 key available on request     |                        |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally  |
|   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less  |
|   so.     --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_          |
|_________________________________________________________________|


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7762
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Sword World Technology
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 17:29:14 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>>As I recall it (correct
>>me if I'm wrong) you started out by asking how come Gram was the leader of
>>the Sword Worlds when Sacnoth was so much more powerful. 
> 
>Yes, I think that's it.
> 
>>I assumed that
>>you were talking about powerful in the naval sense (since a TL or two
>>dosen't mean nearly as much as the population size in the economic sense).
> 
>Okay, here's where I diverge.  I was thinking more along the lines of
>`economic' strength, which I agree is tied to population, than mere naval
>strength.  Keep in mind that Gram and Sacnoth are on the same order of
>population (6 billion and 3 billion, respectively).  Narsil is at 20
>billion but it's two TLs below Sacnoth.  Still, in a feudal technocracy,
>one tech level is going to make a *tremendous* amount of difference.  (It's
>like the difference between Japan and Mexico if Japan's economic power 
>gave it corresponding political power in Mexico.)

But according to the only _Traveller_ rules we have on the subject (_TCS_)
technology _dosn't_ make that much difference. If you look at the credit 
conversion table you'll see that the credits of two worlds with the same 
starport type (which I take in this context to mean the same level of trade)
differ by only 5% per TL. Now, I'm not an economics major. Perhaps that
notion is as ridiculous as some of the mistakes that I am able to spot. 
But since I don't know any better I'm arguing from those tables. With
twice the population of Sacnoth Gram is nearly twice as powerful as Sacnoth
economically.

>I believe I've accepted that these cycles *might* exist and that if they
>do they would explain Gram's leadership of the Confederation.  My concern
>has been that I can't see what *causes* these `techno-economic' cycles
>(since we've agreed they have no `real world' parallel) 

We don't agree on that. We have plenty of real world parallels for economic
cycles. Since we agree that a lower-than-15 TL can only be due to economic
reasons, economic instability _should_ result in TL instability. (Btw. I'm
not so sure we don't have any examples of that. Didn't some farmers put
their cars in the barn and go back to the horse waggon during the Great
Depression?).

>>But my whole point is that they _will_ have much more than a clue. The
>>knowledge is there even if the industry isn't.
> 
>I feel that it takes more than just knowledge.  I don't care how much you
>know about internal combustion engines, if you can't refine oil to make
>gasoline and you don't have a continental highway network you're going
>to have a rough time getting your Yugo or Hyundai from Houston to Detroit.
>The knowledge may be there on a lower tech world but the corresponding
>infrastructure isn't.

Make that steamships instead and you have a better analogy, since the ships
of space don't need any highways. Even if you can't produce boiler plates
you may still be able to rivet them together when they come apart.

>>No, it proves that the authors of a board game have different priorities
>>from the authors of a role-playing game.
> 
>Now wait a minute!  :-)  What happened to:
> 
>>I really think you should try to make up an explanation that fits the known
>>facts rather than to make up an explanation and change the facts to fit them.
> 
>And:
> 
>>IMO one should prefer
>>the one that corresponds most closely to GDWs version.
> 
>Please, Hans, I've got a smile on my face right now and there is absolutely
>no malice in it.  I'm enjoying the living daylights out of our discussions.

No offense taken. I do mean that, but I also direct you to the word 'try'.
If different sources disagree we have to choose between them, and in most 
cases I'd be inclined to choose the role-playing source over the board
game source. I'd be happier if we could reconcile them, but it's just not
possible. _TCS_ gives much bigger fleets than is present in 5FW. 

>>The whole force is much less than the total available Sword World forces;
>>the attack on the Imperium appears to be a secondary effort. Most of 
>>their prime units must have gone against the Darrians. Any Gram TL 12
>>units could be there.
> 
>Well, maybe, but this doesn't agree with the campaign as it was reported in
>*Spinward Marches Campaign*.  According to *SMC*, the Narsil Fleet patrolled
>the Darrian border (and eventually lost the disputed worlds in Querion to
>the Darrians) while the Sacnoth Fleet patrolled the rimward border and
>was eventually destroyed by the Imperial 214th Fleet attacking from Glisten
>and occupying what became the Border Worlds.  Note the Narsil Fleet was
>deployed against the lower tech Darrians rather than the Imperial Navy.

I had forgotten that. OK, consider the above retracted. 5FW forces are just
generally understrength.

>>So what the Traveller SWs owe to Piper is actually little more than
>>the concept of the sword names.
> 
>Well, not exactly.  There are other similarities.  The whole feudal
>technocracy thing.  The *JTAS* article on the former Sword Worlds naval
>captain who's spouse/fiance was killed on their wedding day so she sold
>the family estate to buy a ship and chase the killers - nothing more
>than Lucas Trask in a dress!

I said 'little more'. You're right on both above counts. But Elaine would
have had no chance of going Space Viking from Piper's Gram if Lucas had
been the one killed. That 'nothing more' is quite a lot.

>>The societies are different in a number of
>>ways too (Women accepted in 'male' roles for instance).
> 
>I think this `liberation' issue is merely a matter of when Piper was 
>writing (early 60's) versus when GDW was creating Traveller (late 70's).

I think so too, but what's that got to do with it? It _is_ a pretty
significant difference between the two societies.

>Remember, the GDW material makes a big deal of the `mis-treatment' of
>women in the Sword Worlds.  

Mistreatment? Men and women are assigned different roles in society,
thereby denying some women the chance to fulfill their potential (and
some men too, btw.) That's not good, but I wouldn't call it mistreatment.
On top of that women have a safety valve in that they are accepted in 
'male' roles provided they adopt 'male' behaviour. Males are never
accepted in 'female' roles.

As Steve Bonneville points out:
> 
>>The ranking flag, Riksdattar, is
>>much like Santanocheev.  [Incidentally, if her name is formed
>>in the Icelandic manner, Riksdattar is a woman.  Just an
>>observation for the SW culture watchers.]

Nothing contradictory in that. Riksdattar is a female accepted in a 'male'
role. And apparently she's really accepted, not just tolerated (Either
that or she's the daughter of a king. 'Rik' is a nordic name, but it
could also mean 'realm').

>I think there's a great deal of similarity between Piper's Sword Worlds
>and GDW's Sword Worlds on the issue of how women are portrayed/treated.

I think there's quite some difference.

>>That's just what I said. It's two different and independent bits of my
>>argument. The disparate TLs indicates a close tie to economy. Economy can
>>(and often does) fluctuate. Ergo TLs can fluctuate. If you postulate that 
>>Sword World economy dosen't fluctuate you get stable TLs. If you postulate 
>>that it does you get unstable TLs.
> 
>Okay, but why suppose these still-unexplained cycles 

I despair of explaining those cycles any better than by the sentence 'Economy 
can (and often does) fluctuate'. 

>when they're not needed
>to explain the disparity?  If the different economies are merely at
>different stages of development (with higher TL being an indication of
>greater `advancement') there is no need of these cycles.  

Except to explain why it took Gram 14 centuries to go from TL 12 to TL 11.
OK, there's been some civil wars in between, but they've had centuries
since the 3FW. This _could_ be explained by a slow, steady, uneventful
economic rise over the centuries with, say, a TL per two centuries. Or
it could be an economic roller-coaster that pulls one world two steps
back every time it get one step ahead. Personally, knowing how today's
industrial magnates love to screw around with each other, the second
picture seems much more likely than the first.

>Then Zhodani aid,
>already well established in the canonical material, explains why Gram has
>lead the Confederation when one would expect more advanced (higher tech)
>Sacnoth to do so.

Or much richer Narsil.

>>Certainly. The stable economy theory. But one set of UPPs isn't enough to
>>say anything one way or the other about this.
> 
>Ah, but what about *all* those other worlds *outside* the Sword Worlds 
>that aren't experiencing these cycles?  What `facts' suggest the Sword
>Worlds should be different from the rest of the universe?

First of all, how do you know they haven't? Regina was settled in 75. It 
was TL 10 in 1105. It was TL 11 or 12 in 1120, wasn't it? (I haven't the
books with me here and may be misremembering). Why did Regina gain one
or no TLs in 10 centuries and one more in 15 years? It dosen't make much
sense if you assume that TLs always increase or stagnate (barring wars).
It makes perfect sense if TLs rise and fall over the centuries.
Secondly, even if the Imperium _is_ stable there could be a very good
reason for that: Imperial control. The Sword Worlds have a political
machine, a commitee, to rule them. The Imperium has a single authority
who can shift things around to keep the economy more or less stable 
whoever it may hurt in the short run. The Confederation Council has to
take short term hurts into consideration.

>>several sets of UPPs for the Sword Worlds, but since they have world
>>populations fluctuating by bilions within a decade
> 
>Billions?  Really?  Can you cite the sources?  This is interesting from
>our allegiance/borders viewpoint too.

Yep, I'll dig it out and post it later.

>>Are the US and Europe and Japan different countries? Yet their economies
>>are tightly intertwined.
> 
>No, they're not tighly entwined politically *and* economically like the
>case would be in a feudal technocracy.  A better example would be, say,
>California and, heck, all the other states west of the Rockies put
>together.  When California wants federal water in Montana, it gets it.
>Largely because of it's greater population (which also gives it a larger
>economy) which gives it greater political power in the representative
>democracy we have here.

I'm beginning to see where you're going wrong. See below.

>>>If the economy is interstellar then political power in interstellar...
>> 
>>I don't see how that follows.
> 
>By definition.  In a feudal technocracy, economic power translates *directly*
>into political power.  

Where did you get that definition? I mean, if you made it up yourself you're
begging the question. I admit that I'm vague about just how a feudal
technocracy works, but isn't that because it's a term GDW made up (Or lifted
from some SF book?)? Or is there some dictionary definition of the term? 
Have there ever been a formal feudal technocracy in Real Life? 

>You get to be `king' because you control the largest share of stock.

In a feudal society you get to be king because you have the support of the
great lords. In theory you gets that support because you own the land and
lend it to the great lords in return for their sworn support (In practice
the great lords often control the land whatever the King wants).

By analogy a feudal technocracy is one where the King theoretically owns
all the industry (the source of power analogous to land in a feudal
society) and lend it out in exchange for support. In practice many great
lords propably control their 'fiefs' whatever the King wants.

>Yes, it does, except that in Europe representatives are chosen through a
>representative democracy that places power in the hands of individuals
>equally while in a feudal technocracy (and in the *keiritsu*) those
>representatives are chosen by shareholders that place power in the hands
>of the owners of production.

What you are describing is a corporate government, not a feudal one. In a
feudal government power (in this case, ownership of shares) flows from the 
top to the bottom. What you describe is power flowing from the bottom (the 
individual shares) to the top.

>>The pacification campaigns took place before even the Ante-bellum period of
>>the Imperium. The 3rd frontier War took place after the Civil War and the
>>Psionic suppressions. I find no problem with accepting that Imperial
>>attitudes were different in those two periods.
> 
>Another good point, but it still begs the question of the Imperium not
>`dealing with' the Sword Worlds.

After the 3FW the Imperium dealt with the Sword Worlds by invading them.
Later a different administration decided that the occupation was either
unnecessary ("They'll never dare do anything again, not in a thousand 
years"), or just too expensive, or both. The 4FW was settled by negotiations
and one proviso must certainly be that the Imperium did not retaliate
against the Sword Worlds. And after the 5FW they again dealt with the 
Sword Worlds, this time by setting up a puppet governmnt on half of them.
I just don't understand how you can say that they didn't deal with them.
They've dealt with them at least twice.

>>I must have a different definition of 'intergration' than you. I think these
>>worlds all produce whatever is most profitable at any given time and sell it
>>to anyone who will buy. That's not intergration in my book.
> 
>If I'm Freya Freighters of Sacnoth and I buy a controlling interest in
>Loki Levitation of Gram I have not only gained economic influence on Gram
>but *political* power as well.  

Granted, but the only way you can get that influence is if the king of
Gram allows you to buy that controlling interest. Remember the 'feudal'
in the government class. The king theoretically _owns_ those shares and
what you pay for must be the right to benefit from them. And one of the
things you must pay with is the promise to support him. So it's even
possible that King Harald will not allow you to invest in anything on
Gram.

>Since, at TL 12, I'm clearly the strongest economic power

Fallacy. See above. 

>then I'm going to gain more and more of this sort of
>control.  As soon as the King Harald of Sacnoth (thanks, Cynthia) buys
>a controlling interest in the holdings of King Angus of Gram, Angus 

Angus? Could we select some oth name, please? How about Anders?

>becomes Harald's *vassal*!  That's how a feudal technocracy works.

Is it? Perhaps our first step should be to define just what a feudal
technocracy is and how it works.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "This gives a possible range of 56 to 178 starships
         total  in the three Terran starport facilities,  a
         believable quantity for such a star system."

        "We have a maximum of 178 ships in port, and (as it
         is a busy star system)  we will say that there are
         70 docking berths at the Phoenix facility."

                        ---Journal of the Traveller's
                           Aid Society # 18

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7769
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 17:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Another Pair of NPCs

Here are a couple more of the 10 NPCs that I promised

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulysses Stark ,Sgt(ret)                 Born 12,1160 Arizona Dawn
7-5-8-7-6-6 Soc-7                       Age 41

Willpower-2     Streetwise-2    UAMA-4
Computer-0      Whld Veh-1      Slug Rifle-4
Large Blade-1   Small Blade-2   Autogun-4
Riding-4        Survival-2      Tracked Veh-2
Intrusion-2     Slug Pistol-3   Observation-2
Investigation-1 Persuasion-2    Admin/Legal-1
Interrogation-2

Ulysses Stark grew up on Arizona Dawn in one of the more populous 
cities.  He enlisted in the NeoSol Confederation Marines at the age of 17 
and served as an autogunner, MP and various other duties.  In 1189 
Ulysses, along with a hand (platoon) of Marines were stranded on a 
frontier  planet due to an accident/oversight.  He and his team evaded 
hostile locals for 16 months before being befriended by one group of 
nomads.  The people there talked about something called "Helios?"  The 
lost platoon was rescued in late 1190 and returned home under relative 
secrecy but not before the friendly nomads had given to Ulysses the 
tattered remnants of some long dead archaeologists journal...the exact 
meaning of its observations still a mystery due to its fractured nature.  
He married the Nemon Rebel and fugitive Jana Biesecker on Arizona Dawn in 
1193 and retired from the marines in 1197 after 20 years of service.  He 
then became constable for a small district on Enope and raised riding 
animals.  When two junior constables were found shot to death in their 
ATV in a local wilderness area all fingers pointed to the strange loner 
who lived in the hills by the name of Solon Maghib.  Ulysses vowed to 
hunt the killer down and did so only to discover him held prisoner by the 
son of a local wealthy statesman.  When challenged the man Aaron Nessus 
fired at the Constable who shot him dead.  Constable Stark subsequently 
found life very difficult on Enope and eventually decided to leave, 
trying to find his fortunes working as a security consultant for some 
corporation or high port.  He still recieves a pension of about 900 Cr/month.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strephon Pecorin                        Born 264,1173  Prima
6-5-6-B-A-A Soc-9

UAMA-1          Willpower-2     Computer-2      
Research-2      Act/Bluff-2     Biology-3
Xeno-Biology-2  Farming-2       Music(keyboard)-2
Admin/Legal-4   Leadership-2    Marketing-2
Persuasion-2    Bargain-2       Env Suit-1
Gambling-1      Liaison-2

Strephon grew up a fairly average middle class kid during the hey day of 
the NeoSol Confederation before it gave way to the Unified Sphere.  He 
attended NeoSol Univ and got an undergraduate degree in Agricultural 
Science.  He moved on the graduate school where he mastered in 
agricultural economics.  As a bright young wunderkind he was snatched up 
by NeoSol Systems Company rapidly emerging agricultural systems 
division.  The redevelopment of worlds ravaged by the rebellion and hard 
times provided ample oppurtunity to whoever got off to a head start.  He 
was trained and sent to the relatively new automated lowland facility on 
Rach where he was part of the analytical team that helped to plan the 
facility layout for the future works.  He transferred to the planet 
Aquilas where he worked as a special assistant to then Facility Manager 
Amura Adan.  After suffering losses from ocean going pirates there and 
the lack of any centralized government on the world, Strephon and Amura 
developed the idea of a corporate action team to handle such situations.  
After some persuasion the company decided to back the idea although there 
were malcontents.  Strephon is now Amura direct assistant and handles 
much of the administrative and analytical work of the team.

"I was brought up to believe that if you work hard and youre always 
honest that youll make something of yourself.  Life has taught me that 
people lie.  Ive developed a sense of bitterness but I still try to be 
true to myself through honesty and hard work.  Ambition? Yes Im ambitous, 
Im looking for that idea, that score that will push me towards the top 
but I temper that with compassion and common sense.  Being a part of the 
team is great, Heck Amura and I are just alike, she's even told me I 
remind her of herself 6 years ago.  I think we make a pretty good team"

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belal Hebron  Cpt(Marine Reserves)              Born 120, 1171 Age 29
                                                Rex High Port
Computer-3      Whld Veh-0      Willpower-3
Swimming-0      Leadership-2    Physics-3
Starshp Arch-2  Slug Pistol-2   Sensors-3
Commo-2         Pilot I/G-6     Grnd Tac-2
Env Suit-4      Observation-2   UAMA-3
Marketing-2     Admin/Legal-2

My father and mother worked in a high port orbiting prima.  Thats where I 
was born.  My mother was a sub-manager and my fathers was a technician.  
I attened secondary school planetside and so lived there away from my 
parents during the school terms.  I went on to university where I majored 
in general physics.  One summer I got the chance to do a drop from orbit 
with a Marine pilot in one of the new Drop Gunships.  I was hooked.  I 
got into the conferderation Marines after graduation and was selected for 
a pilots slot.  I graduated from flight school with my drop wings on Day 
1,1196.  
        I was in a drop gunship a year later when the Carrier Altair 
jumped for the first frontier excursion.  Theres nothing like dropping in 
from orbit in 40 tons of composites and crystaliron loaded down with half 
again that wt of everytype of ordnance you can think of.  Its no problem, 
the grav negates your weight so you can sit there and hover behind that 
tree line for a half an hour until called upon, then you light up 80 tons 
of thrust and come roaring across the battlefield.  It can really suck 
being the other guy.  The gunships arent grav tanks but their a grav 
tanks worst nightmare.
        During my second tour off Midas Prime, my "ground pounder" as 
theyre called was hit my some sort of beam which disabled it, (so much 
for armor)  I egressed and was later rescued off the planets surface.  On 
the ground I felt very strange about the appearances of things.  I cant 
quite put my finger on it but it hand something to do with the 
geometry?! of the terrain.  I took some pictures with my data recorder 
that Ive never gotten around to taking to an expert.  I left active duty 
for the reserves soon after that.  I was able to buy a little grav 
shuttle on Prima and I fly that around Sol City on charters.  Ive got an 
offer to join a team from an old friend Strephon Pecorin so Im headed to 
the high port to check it out.  Adio
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
My mistake...make that three NPCs

Tariq

"Cats and Traps can be more fun than a barrell full of monkeys...
 ..as long as youre not the one in the barrell and the monkeys keep their 
hands to themselves...."  
                        From Naval Aviation News



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